In this episode, Christian, founder of Infini.money, explores how stablecoins are reshaping financial services for global founders and borderless companies.
Christian shares his journey from crypto investor to fintech entrepreneur, why he launched Infini in 2024, and how a consumer card became the company’s first growth engine before expanding into business accounts, global payments, treasury management, and AI-powered financial operations.
The conversation also examines Infini’s business model, the real value of AI CFOs, and why execution speed, customer service, and trust, not access to banking or blockchain rails, form the company’s true moat. Most candidly, Christian reflects on Infini’s nearly $50 million security incident, the decision to protect and compensate users, and the difficult process of rebuilding security and trust. It is both a stablecoin fintech story and a firsthand account of building a financial company through rapid growth, strategic change, and crisis.
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Charlie：00:04
Welcome to Fintechnice, a podcast about the people building at the intersection of am fintech. In each episode, I speak with founders, investors, industry leaders about the ideas shape in the future of financial services from intelligent agents, the new payment rails to digital assets, infrastructure and the next generation of financial products. I'm Charlie do. Let's get started. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Today's Fintech Guys Founder Series episode No. 3. Today is our PLA pleasure to have Christian, the founder of infinite that money. Hi Christian. Please say hi to our audience.
Christian：00:41
Hi, Charlie. And hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. I'm Christian. That's one of you.
Charlie：00:46
Christian, why don't we start with introduction of yourself and what let you to build infinite. Sure.
Christian：00:51
Of course. Yeah, so it's quite interesting story because I'm kind of like, you know, relatively younger and also I do not begin my career as a, you know, traditional banker or, you know, a fintech startup. So actually became interesting in crypto while I was at, I was in my initially through in FT during the last cycle, curiosity actually gradually let me to define where I found something much more fundamental for the first time. So I later co found a investment fund call next in Digital Venture and spend several years investing across crypto and define also stocks. So the more I study the industry, the more I felt that the largest opportunity was not another token or training product, it was actually to use this infrastructure to build a financial product that people in real business could use every day. You know, so that's kind of the reason why we start infinite during 2,024.
Charlie：01:49
What was that timing of 2024 that made you feel like so special that you decided to tr, pull the trigger and start this new company.
Christian：01:58
By that time, actually, defi was still popular, I would say, you know, the yield is very high. There was very good product like eastern and more for coming out. So at first we think, oh, maybe we should do a you bearing, you know, stable coin or a product. Then after that, we actually realize the more, you know, opportunity for us is actually building a consumer product. If specially during that time, there wasn't that much new bank, especially good in your bank that really have the good experience, for example, crypto Carver. I was only, I would say the beginning stage at this at that moment, especially in APAC, we didn't think there is a good product that offer that experience. So, you know, even though we lack of the experience of payment product, but at that time, we say, hey, I think it's not that difficult for us to try. And we see a lot of the demanding, there's user waiting, you know, every day for this type of the not product. So we were actually want the earliest mon product that actually combine both the you product and, you know, Cryptocar were a consume consumer product. So that was kind of the opportunity active.
Charlie：03:02
I think the timing is definitely interesting. And I wonder how would you summarize infinite today and who is it primary built for in, give me one or two sentences.
Christian：03:11
Sure. Yeah, after almost two years of building right now infinite is actually a civil pain power, but AI native financial operating system or, you know, the global consumer and also borderless companies in your bank, you know, normally begin with an account and that payment company normally begins with a transaction. But we actually trying to, you know, begin with the customer's entire financial workflow, whether receiving money, holding, converting, spending, earning, and also, of course, managing a team and eventually letting a agent help operate all of that. So I would say, you know, I think we're trying to build the, you know, financial system for the next generates, next generation, especially the founders.
Charlie：03:49
Interesting. And you mention several groups of customers. And for sure, like when you're building a scalable product, you, you're going to have several groups of customers. And I'm wonder which one would you think is the, or would you say is the most targeted, like the both side group of customers?
Christian：04:08
Sure. Yeah, if we have to name the single most important pipel to customer, I believe it's actually the founders for the next generation. You know, we saw a lot of happening. Everything change rapidly right now, especially in the past when you try to, you know, build a product, you might, you know, need to fundraising. It took like several months or even in years to build a product. But right now, you know, with all the and web coding, actually the speed actually could, you know, reduce to one weeks or months. So we figure out a actually this time, you know, there's more opportunity for every founders as long as you have some the cool idea, you can, you know, definitely test it all and, you know, go to market with your current product.
Christian：04:48
So I would say that would be, you know, these founder are actually the targeting audience of us in the early stage. So, you know, they might run company in one jurisdiction, but of course they're globally from day one. They might sell to the customer in different countries. They might pay vendor or a remote team, you know, in different currency. So I think that was the most important clients of us.
Charlie：05:12
And I'm curious, when you bump into these clients and these founders, like the moment you found empathy to their problem, what was the one No. 1 or No. 2 problems or burning problems that they're trying to solve?
Christian：05:24
Yeah, I think especially in APAC, you know, companies and capital flows, you know, have become global, but some the banking infrastructure they use is to, you know, organize country by country. Imagine a startup, you know, a small company, they might collect fund or revenue from customer, you know, globally in different, you know, regions. And of course, right now, even more, cuz there might be some, the customer who paid in stable queen in the past, you know, they did all they need is to deal with the theat currency. And of course, right now, actually what I discover is as the global fintech or, you know, money infrastructure become more accessible, we saw a lot of the bank, you know, great bank, this, you know, traditional US bank right now are expand globally. So that mean actually they can serve more people. But of course, you know, even the banking instructor might have plan to do so, but the real work are still gonna be execute by different startups or fintech company who cover, you know, different regions. For us, of course, in this early stage, we're gonna focus on the apec regions. Yeah, so I think that's kind of a very fundamental change of the both crypto and payment, especially in the next, you know, 10 years. So that's kind of like the a pain point we solve.
Christian：06:39
And of course, you know, during this transaction, I think right now people are still need a, you know, platform who can deal with all the part. Cuz in the past, maybe there's a payment company who only focus on a very, you know, small sector. And of course, they gonna be like really great.
Christian：06:55
But in the future, I think right now, cuz the fundamental already change. So in the future, people need a platform to can actually do all the work. So they don't need to like change from this product to another product is very hard to manage, whether in the fund flow or in compliance where you know, you know, where their Ledger wise. So that's coming the, you know, change we have notice and also the pain point we trying to solve for them.
Charlie：07:20
That's interesting. And I think because our audience are gonna be from, you know, from the US, from Europe, from Latin America, Africa, etc. And that might not have the complete contacts of what APAC or especially the fintech market in APAC feels like. They might hear Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea. But based on your experience, maybe pick the picture of the broader fintech markets and why it's so fragmented and why is and and that they probably hear, you know, stripe circle and these feed tech and crypto companies that being in the market for relatively decent amount of time, but why there's still a fragmented market and why there's so much pain for the young generation of founders to operate?
Christian：08:05
Sure, I think this question is actually very great. So there might be two aspect of this question. The first one is some the, you know. More, you know, mature regions like you mentioned, Hong Kong, Singapore, these, you know, financial infrastructure are actually very solid. So for this kind of the area, I think, you know, Civil Queen or AI Agent is some the new technology that can enable them to do something they never imagine before.
Christian：08:30
And for the other regions in APAC relation, speaking on these developing countries, I think the interesting change, you know, we notice for every, you know, founder in this industry is actually they do not have a, you know, they did not have a, you know, good structure. So that's the reason why simple queen in the distribution side are more friendly and likely accessible for them. Yeah. So I think, you know, of course, we might pick one or two, you know, region to focus. But I think general speaking in the future, I think all of this country deserve. Or they might have a, you know, or they might have opportunity for a startup to actually enter this market by, you know, stable coin, of course.
Charlie：09:11
Hum, and you brought up the topic of a stable coin and people who are following the market know that stable coin had been, eh, in kind of skyrocketing growth ever since 2024 when bridges was acquired by stripe. And not just in the US, Latin America, Africa and Europe, APAC as well. All, so why do you think it's the right moment to build a stable coin power financial platform, specifically in the APAC market?
Christian：09:37
Hum, yeah, I think, you know, even you super com might be a popular narrative on, you know, during the past three years probably. But still what we can see is, you know, in the reality, simple Queen is still like very small ratio of that part. So in this stage, I think that would be a great opportunity for any startup to competing with. And of course, I think there are some the change as I mention too. So I think three things actually change at the time, at the same time, demand regulation and their structure.
Christian：10:04
So the first, you know, Civil Queen actually moved beyond crypto trading. We can see the companies are really using them for cross border settlement, you know, treasury management, payroll and supply and payment, you know, so, and also second, the regulatory direction is much clearly right now. We have these, you know, progress made in different restriction, you know, by, you know, stable queen or crypto every year, you know, there's a collection framework. Sorry, it's definitely creative framework for, you know, the super queen through the GNS, for example, about course, I think the opportunity actually appears when the regulation is not that, you know, finished, you know, and the requirements gonna continue to involve. So I think now is the opportunity.
Christian：10:46
And the third is actually the supporting infrastructure become much stronger. All the banking, you know, all the fintech players right now are, you know, more friendly and they're all turning to Civil Queen. There will be better regulated issue, the cost to the system, you know, bank connection compliance tool out of. And of course, we see, you know, visa and Mastercard, you know, roll out their card program for stable Queen. Yeah, so I think the major payment companies are also integrating with stable and settlement. So I think these combined. We should actually made us a, you know, a future and a good timing for us.
Charlie：11:22
I think regulation you mention is definitely interesting, right? People are watching, actively watching the in the US, the genius act, clarity act. In Europe, there is Amiga and probably hear people hear about the Hong Kong stable coin accordance, but probably don't have the right context of understanding different jurisdictions in APAC. Cuz there are many countries, and especially in the more developed part of the APAC, you have Japan who have been very slow or hesitating in, you know, legalizing stable coin.
Charlie：11:54
Maybe help our audience, you know, conceptualize what's the landscape of stable coin related regulation, especially given there are many markets where financial flow are not as free and regulation are rather centralized. I help them understand the staple con regulation, regulatory landscape in APAC.
Christian：12:15
For APAC, I would say different region, of course, have the different policy. For example, Hong Kong, we just mention, you know, of course, we notice Hong Kong are releasing were approved, you know, the issue of the civil queen this year, I guess. And you know, for Singapore, of course, they already license and regulated. So that's why we think, you know, for example, Hong Kong and Singapore are more mature, especially, you know, when we talking about the money rules and also all the RM off ramp, you know, that happen every second at this moment. For example, what we notice from our experience for Singapore, the regulation company, of course, the payment company is, you know, by volume, they're much bigger. And, you know, all the process and all the experience, especially, you know, when you talking on our offline. There's a, you know, requirement that, you know, the destination, the bank have to, you know, actually allow it.
Christian：13:05
Yeah, so I think these kind of the regulation and policy analyzes definitely already help stable Queen to, you know, expand and, you know, actually enter the daily life. So there's actually no doubt barrier were limitation for Vietnam stable.
Christian：13:20
I would say in this stage is much clear. Hong Kong probably not that quick at this moment, but I also believe in the future, the banking or the whole financial system might be more friendly to simple Queen to, yeah, for the other rest of the APEC, I would say probably I'm not like the best person to answer this question, but I believe the process is going. We notice there are some, the policy in a license are rolling out every year. So we definitely, you know, looking forward to that. Hum.
Charlie：13:46
Another dimension is how stable coin have this love and hate relationship with banks, right? In the US, you hear JP Morgan, right, Jim, Jamie Diamond had been so vocal about anything crypto or stable coin being like a fraud or not trustworthy. But of a sudden they've been kind of all in crypto, both on the stable coin side and on their own tokenize deposit side. I'm curious about the banks in Hong Kong and Singapore that you talk to, like how they're embracing or testing stable coin.
Christian：14:23
Yeah, to be very honest, I think for that part, for you, the bank, especially in Hong Kong and Singapore, of course, are, you know, a little bit behind this. I think in this stage that's different. Of course, I think Singapore is more friendly as long as you have the license. Of course, you know, a Singapore license is probably one of the, you know, most difficult to get for a Starbucks or any payment company. And for Hong Kong, I think, you know, even though they're above, for Hong Kong, we know the virtual asset billing, you know, VA custody are not, you know, there's no license yet. Of course, they're, you know, VSP, they're also MSO.
Christian：15:00
I think it's still in the a, you know, balance stage. I think it depends on each of them. Company that actually handling, you know, of course, any payment company, if you have a very, you know, solid compliance structure, I think there, of course, the bank gonna, you know, provide you more opportunity.
Christian：15:16
Yeah, like in US, I think all the issuing bank, whether they're doing business of the, you know, providing the account and do the, you know, cross border or they're, you know, issuing bank who issued, you know, visa or Mastercard. I think it's very mature nowadays, especially when we see the leading, you know, for bank, you there's a like cross river bank, there are lead bank, there's many ma other bank for company there's you know, there's huge contact counting like stripe. I think that's a very mature. So yeah, I think they'll be very interesting to watch how it goes in the future.
Charlie：15:51
Yeah, very interesting. And, you know, switching direction back to infinite them company. And if I remember correctly, you first gain traction through your consumer card product, which is kind of interesting because when people hear about payments landscape in APAC, people think about different kinds of wallets, right? Starting from the Alipay, Wechat pay or to these embedded wallets through grab, all these, you know, consumer products. But people don't normally associate this market with cart, right? So, and help us understand why was you, you know, your car product taking off and what was the secret behind it, and what did that experience issue?
Christian：16:30
People growing up in China, for example, people are very, you know, familiar with all these, you know, leading fintech product, whether it's Wechat or Alipay. They're actually the next level, you know, payment product. So yeah, I think so there's like, isn't much opportunity in that to of course, not compliance there. So it's no way to do so. But actually outside world, especially, you know, these two years, you know, when everyone is, you know, purchasing or subscribe to AI tools, you know, that's actually where the card actually take the place. It's, you know, almost impossible to, you know, pay, you know, as a local wallet. Of course, stripe accept many of them, but still, you know, credit card, you know, card are still the, you know, the most friendly product when we speak of the cross border and globalize. So in that stage, I think of course, Cryptocard is a small sector, but the card itself are still, you know, the most significant work. No expanded network. That visa, you know, in a Mastercard took many years to build. Of course, backing to our product, you know, doing actually our launch was the January of the 2,025. So last year, I think the consumer card was our fastest feedback. Look, actually, you know, the day we launch, actually there already like 10,000 user are on our willingness. Of course, by that time, this isn't much new bank for crypto part issue. Yeah, but I think even today still solve a problem that, you know, a user could understand in 10 second is, you know, when they have Simple Queen, they have digital dollars. How do I use them in everyday life? Of course, we saw a lot of adoption already, but I think these are still exist. And of course, right now, majority of them came from the crypto native user and founders. But I believe at this. Beat actually in the future, even the, you know, the fiat or web 2 user are still gonna be choose, you know, crypto, you know, product or crypto card. Cuz I think there definitely many advantage here. So yeah, in the research, we launch this product and of course we didn't do any marketing at all. Even now today, there's still no margin cost for us. So the product majorly spreads through word of mouth, you know, because people could see the value immediately. I, you know, they recommend it because it's very simple. The speed of opening account is much better than a traditional bank, especially when we talking about opening bank account in Hong Kong. You know, personally, I just, you know, experience this a lot and it's actually very, you know, hard and difficult. So yeah, I think right now, even nowadays, we still see the value. View of this triple car product right now.
Charlie：19:02
And I'd understand, especially in Hong Kong, cryptocard car issuing has been very heated market, right? You hear about all these ex exchanges, global exchanges offering their cars and there's, you know, very famous companies like red up pay or reap doing very deep integration on card issuing. Help us understand the card issuing acceptance market, especially, you know, crypto based or stable coin based car markets in Hong Kong.
Christian：19:30
Yeah, I think two side, of course, is a consumer. Of course, Hong Kong is relatively small based in consumer since its population is not that big. I remember it's less than 10 million. But of course there are many handovers, especially, you know, these resident, the Malay, Hong Kong, but they're actually within, you know, China before.
Christian：19:47
I think this group will definitely are one of the, you know, highest, you know, buying power. Their volume is huge. And that's one part. But I think the second part, you know, the actually role the Hong Kong play is actually more from issuing side. We have see the company just mention rip first. There's many others issue, I think impact major issue are, you know, whether in Hong Kong or Singap work, cuz the instructor is more, you know, the regulation is more mature.
Christian：20:15
So we can see these actually are having a great positioning right now. Of course, in infinite, we would also partner with the issuing company pay, whether their payment company or issuing bank Hong Kong is definitely a choice. Of course, the, you know, the PRI, the pricing proposal from them is usually better, of course, at least better than Europe. That's one thing.
Christian：20:36
And second part, I would say still in the major demand or the. Best program probably are still base in US, for example, cuz definitely, you know, they're US dollar dominated and US dollar is more accessible for or consumer or business globally. And also, you know, the spending, you know, scenario are also more focusing in us at this moment.
Christian：20:58
But I would say in the future, probably we will see Hong Kong, Singapore and US could play, you know, different roles. And, you know, and of course, there will be different demand in the future.
Charlie：21:06
Interesting. So these users there, these founders who are actively purchasing a presence using a global app, but forms that are using your cards. Any interesting behavior that surprised you the most? Cuz you know that's the situation, the scenario sounds pretty plain vanilla right there. They use chat GPT, they use anthropic, they use Gemini. They need a credit card or debit card to use their card on file to always, you know, top up. That sounds almost like too simple or too good to be true that, you know, these are always the happy scenarios, that there's no, you know, the chargeback dispute or crazy scenarios they're running to or weird card purchases, anything interesting that you found from the behavior?
Christian：21:52
Yeah, there are definitely a lot of, you know, the struggle were kind of frustrating moment we had, especially, you know, last year when we just start, we have no experience at all. So that moment we trying to be responsibility and providing the best service to every client. It turns out it's something that almost impossible.
Christian：22:11
So from that experience, we learn a lot. First is, you know, we need to do or launch any program in a very compliant way. But you know, cuz there are many company who are probably don't care that much at this moment, but in the long term, we discover that is actually not great for user, especially not responsibility for this user that actually need you the most. So that's one, you know, thing. And of course, you know, being in the card issuing business, you need to do the risk control actually very much so. For example, like the inter barrier shouldn't be too low. You know, many people do the no KYC card or, you know, there's no, you know, opening fee for car, but it's actually for now, it's gonna use by the, you know, the probably I would say the user quality won't be that good. And there are many people use your card as a, you know, you know, the user require to do very weird behavior, you know, they subscribe, you know, for like the authorizations, authorization could be like $1 each time, you know, they just open a car and discard a car. Not speak of. Some people might use this card for the bad behavior. So I think that's the lesson we learn. So that's definitely, you know, why we need a very, you know, full compliance structure to enable this and to make sure, yeah, no such bitter happen. Yeah, there's many interesting stuff we see, you know, there are people who subscribe and, you know, large purchase and of course there are people who using the car for their daily life. Each people have their, you know, pain point. There's no such thing as a, you know, perfect product, but that's actually why, you know, we need to keep building it and keep improving it by providing, you know, the experience and product that, you know, fits the demand for every type of client. Yeah, that's of course what we trying to do in the future. That.
Charlie：23:51
Makes sense. And also diving fast forward to today, right? Your you're building the business suite almost, right? Starting from like a con, like a single person card to a whole suite of business. What was the motivation behind that decision transitioning from or actually doubling down both on the card and the whole business differential services suite?
Christian：24:15
Yeah, this actually people are asking this question very often since we kind of pivot last year. So we are a very consumer focus, 100% consumer focus product back in.
Christian：24:25
But right now, actually we provide both consumer, you know, personal and business. So the reason us in last year is because we figure out actually for consumer new bank, there's no much differentiator. Even now I can see, you know, for all these, you know, leading payment product for this new bank, they're actually providing the very similar experience, just literally like no ex, no, you know, difference. Of course, they're product are more mature, their product to offer a higher cashback. We're probably, you know, more sustainable card program. You know, of course, for example, we might providing a good unique product or a, you know, a earning product on send others. But still, you know, these are kind of thing. So yeah, so that's the one reason why we turn to business. Cuz definitely business client, you know, nothing of payment, but you know, even you're building a AI software, probably right now the, you know, major revenue are still coming from business and they're more sustainable. You know, they're the retention rate is much higher. And of course, it's more challenge. We start from a very practical observe observation. So for many of the core user, actually personal and business finance are two part of the same life. So think about the founder of a startup. Their company may collect revenue in dollars for Civil Queen. And of course they need to pay supplier issue card to their team and manage their treasury. So the same person also need to receive a salary and, you know, reimbursement, you know, also manage the personal saving and pay for their everyday life. So today they may need a business bank, a personal bank, a crypto wallet exchange where, you know, several. Payment apps do all of that, and they're constantly switching the platform, moving and converting their money. And of course, you know, they need to check where the fund are and be calculating the transaction across the system. All of these process cost, time, fees, and more importantly, you know, mental energy. So our goal is actually to give the founder one app and one trust financial relationship, their personal profile and a business profile. So that two side could, you know, remain clearly and separately. I think that and you know, combine of all of that is the reason why we trying to expand our product from consumer to business and also believe the, you know, the real growth that will gonna, you know, come true when we're, you know, completely offer a good product experience.
Charlie：26:47
Cool. Awesome. You mentioned sounds like the product suite is very full right now. If I'm, and then correct, you have collections on Ra of Rams, payments cards and savings. I'm wondering which product right now is the initial hook to customer? Is it still the card or weihuan brings the customer to the platform first?
Christian：27:08
Yeah, so we do have a full stacks on, you know, different features from that you won't mention, but I think our hook. Actually, right now is actually still the card and also the saving or earning product. For example, in business side, you know, a business may begin because it needs a corporate part for them, you know, to spend and to pay for all the Saas Bill. For consumer, of course, people need card. So I would say at this stage, part is still the crypto or civil containment sector. We see them, you know, we see that have the largest, you know, demand and of course, regard trying to competing in this sector with a better experience and of course, with the better being and better commercial term. So currently, I think car product and our product are the hooks. And of course, after, you know, the business client or after the consumer attract bad debt, they will figure out, oh, actually, Anthony could provide much more feature and also actually we can providing feature. Sure, nearly, you know, to solve all the problem they might have for, you know, the whole financial move. So I think that's kind of the answer for that question.
Charlie：28:18
Got it. How do they, I'm curious, how do they discover their more product, the in the app through UI design or do you, oh, provide more content or from. For them to or trigger or nudge for them to understand more. Just curious about the discoverability of those new.
Christian：28:36
Products. Yeah, that was actually the hard part is how do you know, especially with the speed of the delivery, cuz we, you know, are, you know, release every, you know, 10 to 20 feature every month is actually more important is how do your customer know the feature you provide are good experience. So yeah, I think there are several sector, for example, for product update and also the help center. That's actually very important cuz we're trying to do the SLG model. So we don't want a lot of, you know, customer support or a lot of the BD sales are answer all the question the customer have. So for example, I think the fundamental, all of these information are very important and they need to be accessible by the client, you know, by themselves. So, you know, the notification, the product update, yeah, or the social media, I think it's a very complex, but also, you know, very important thing to do.
Christian：29:27
And the second way is actually, you know, that's actually we do not have at this moment, but very soon in the future. This is actually trying to providing this financial agent who can update and who can notice, you know, who can actually suggest and give you advice. Let's say, hey, we notice, for example, like maybe you still are not using infinite card at this moment. We're actually gonna to provide 2% to three percent cashback in the future. And of course, with one of the best being, you know, globally, I think these all are the reminders that we can have. And definitely you're gonna create the retention rate and also the interest for our client. So for example, the extension might happen naturally once the money enter the infinity account system. You know, for example, a company that collects revenue, do the checkout with infinite could actually figure out, oh, I, is that in the same page? Yeah, in a menu. Oh, they can always notice their Idol fund could be kept in the Infinity treasury. And the earn product we provide, I know, for example, with 7 to 8% API, that's definitely something the traditional bank where product couldn't provide. I know first after that, they gonna figure out, oh. Infinite have a better, you know, card experience, issuing, you know, product experience than my, you know, other, you know, product platform. And of course, you will figure out.
Christian：30:40
Cuz most important part is, you know, if s, let's say their revenue is coming from super plane days, they might think, oh, I know I have money, but how could I actually, you know, having this money and, you know, with of my account in that account. So no, that's the reason why we spend a lot of time to building this frame for, you know, payout reels. And they can figure out, oh, they will notice, oh, actually my money could, you know, turn to feed and, you know, send to my bank account in one click on in the same day. Yeah, so it's actually super hard to let every customer know what you provide. So that's definitely challenge and we will keep improving in the future.
Charlie：31:15
And also based on the product features you're launching, sounds like you have multiple revenue streams, right, from the card side, from the transactions to the balances to treasure products. Help us understand your business model.
Christian：31:28
Sure. Yeah, evening actually has the very straightforward business model. We do not charge any fixed fee. There's no, you know, account fee, there's no monthly minimum fee. Actually is rare cuz, you know, especially for product in US or Europe, for example, they're more likely to, you know, build their business model on that. I don't think that's right for the Asian, for APAC customer, APEC customer want a free product, at least in the early stage. So we're very, you know, transparency. We do not charge any of that. We only make money when customer put their money to work or move through Anthony. So right now there are three main revenue stream of us. Of course, is we earn carry fees from the, you know, asset the customer allocate to our treasury or, you know, our product. So just like a, you know, fund manager. We only make money when you make money. If you don't make money, you, we don't. That's very simple. Cuz I think that's for us more align with our customer. And for the in payment, I think of course, that will help, you know, if you couldn't make any revenue, there should be any fee to that.
Christian：32:31
That's also we trying to provide a friendly experience for all these founder, even though you're might just start your, you know, you're building your product. We don't like any banks. I'd always say, hey, you need to pay us what's another dollar in upfront. I don't think that's very friendly to these new founders. So that's actually what we seen the new bank or the civil queen could actually provide to them.
Christian：32:54
Yeah, for the first is we charge the clarity when you make the profit. Second, of course, we receive the share of the interchange revenue when our customers spend our card, whether they're consumer or corporate. And of course, in early sheet, of course, what we do is we gonna provide all the, you know, interchange to cash back to our user, even we might, you know, pay extra one for, you know, the market in the early stage. And of course, sir, I think just like every PSP, we charge the very transparent transaction fee for acquiring and our platform service.
Christian：33:25
So these three combine, I think are, you know, the reliable and best business model for a, I think that's same true, you know, in Anthony. So we're not trying to maximize the margin on every transaction. You know, we deliberately keep our take rate low. And of course, during the early stage, we may even subsidize certain product. But that actually gonna allow our customer to have a great experience with a good and transparency price.
Charlie：33:51
That's an interesting mindset. Cuz as a founder, I love it. Like if your product doesn't charge me like a monthly fee to for me to, you know, benefit from it to get the taste of it. But I can imagine, as a founder, is really hard to manage the predictability of your revenue. So I, I'm curious, how do you see the potential of all these products going forward? Which one would be the most valuable and ideally bring some predictability of the revenue stream to your business. But for your business, that means that you will have the predictability of revenue, right? So you have to balance the UPS and downs of the how you user use your product. As a founder, how do you balance these mix of the products? And also which ones do you think will have the most potential down the road in the next day, 12 to 18 months.
Christian：34:45
Yeah, for us, I would say the earning product, since the strategy we have, that's gonna be very, you know, exclusive and also very competitive. So that occurs the core cash flow of us, it also very sustain, is very durable. And, but I think the growth would be still coming from the card product. I think in the next 12 or 18 months, our goal is actually to provide one of the best car product out there. Even though there are already like hundred or thousand of the new bank, but we still think, you know, our product gonna be offer a better solution. Yeah, so definitely we'll put more strategy and more resource on this and, you know, seeking for a better growth metrics of this part.
Charlie：35:27
I remember during one of our, you know, conversation, you mentioned that the future is not web 3 finance versus web 2 finance, but Gen, a new generation of fintech companies replacing the old ones. I'm curious about you're thinking of that. Would you elaborate on your thoughts?
Christian：35:45
Sure. When I see that, I mean, you know, the long term winners. Will not be determined by whether they call themselves a crypto, web 3 or web 2 company. No, or even simply by whether they use table plane. Cuz, you know, of course, we all know civil cleaning right now, Civil Crane will increasingly be, you know, a very invisible instructor. Eventually, most of the, you know, this huge financial company will have access to the similar bank watching and payment reels. Customer will not care like much about which technology, you know, sit under this. All the curious whether the product is faster, the product is more simple and more reliable and less expensive. So the real competition is between a new generation of fintech companies and, you know, the older one, the reject organization. Of course, you know, the startup or the new company often have a faster execution. Counter learning cycle is much shorter, and they also have a relatively deeper understanding of the technology. For example, Spin Point and AI agent. So they can, you know, design product around how customer live into business today instead of trying to feed the technology into the old system. That's something interesting we might discover in, you know. Probably in the future, one or two years, even though we can still see there's a lot of the web two company who trying to enter the crypto. But I would see you like many detail and many know how are still require time and process. Yeah, so ultimately at beginning, I believe the winners will be coming that combined trust and, you know, discipline of a financial, you know, institution with, you know, both speed, technology and execution. So in that stage, I don't see whether crypto or stable Queen web stream or web 2 are important. Yeah, I think it's always the good team stand out.
Charlie：37:27
Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm wondering, cuz you mentioned. AI as well. And recently, you know, everyone is watching how AI is redefining finance, both from the investment side and also corporate finance and per even personal finance. People start to think, you know, in the past is you have to, as a product builder, you need to focus on, you know, building the most user friendly interface, making sure your product navigation is easier. But more and more people are thinking about, oh, I'll just build a few agents for me to manage better, man. Manage my money. And of course, in the future, you might even build your a your own agent or your customer will be the agents are dedicated by the people behind the scenes. I'm curious how you're seeing the future of AI E, especially in your field and in how people will navigate your product.
Christian：38:20
Yeah, I think especially just shared agent commerce or the agent payment are very popular topic and narrative. You can also see a lot of good team are building upon that. I would say AI is to the fundamental change of that. But for us, for myself, I don't think infinite right now is trying to claim that we're doing an agent payment. Cuz I still, you know, from our, you know, the real discover, we do have a lot of the agent company, AI company that providing the AI, Saas or software, still we don't see a lot of demand here. People actually don't need a agent payment at this moment.
Christian：38:55
It is more interesting, definitely a very great topic to discover. But at this moment, what we think is actually we can see agent are here to help. There's no like huge change. People, our customer or consumer are still operating and manage their finance in the old way they used to do. But definitely I think Asian right now are helping them to execute faster, especially for business case, you know, you might need a ASFO to actually run all the finance.
Christian：39:22
Yeah, there's many, you know, detail in the very complex workflow. Think that's the part where agent could actually create value at. So I think at least this year, what we trying to focus is actually let the agent to improve every workflow of these, you know, money movement instead of to building a, you know, product day, you know, majorly for a agent. I think that's more easy. And also, I also believe. For example, next year we decide, hey, we might need to focus on the Asian, you know, reels or the Asian payment. I think that will actually enable us to have a better understanding. Cuz I think, you know, in the future, there's no doubt, you know, technical mode or technical on that part. On payment side, there's, you know, there's always not, you know, related to technology is always about the workflow, you know, and all these, you know, what important in fintech, that's actually something we see. And of course, for all the companies, some the company ad America, like, you know, whether they're stripe or ramp or evolute, I can see they're, you know, rolling out their Asian product right now. So I believe next year probably is gonna be a very great year. And that's the moment when we, every consumer and their business finally realize agent could actually help them to do some work.
Charlie：40:37
Yeah, so great observation and thought. And also you pushed on this in your answer about the competition, right? You mention many names, Revolute, Stripe, they're all doing, you know, agenda payments and also non agenda payment, like just pure fintech products, whether it's web to or web 3. And you have, you know, revolute and Airwallex recently raising huge amounts and you have even newer startups entering this world of offering kind of a new bank solution for both consumers and new businesses, because they see a new wave of businesses being created, a new wave of founders entering the market. How are you fighting against these competitions? And what's becoming your mode as you understand?
Christian：41:23
Yeah, I think that's a very good question. And of course, every investor will ask like, what's the mode of any, you know, startup doing fintech? Yeah, I think the honest answer is that actually the access to bank blockchain or card partner is never a, you know, promote, you know, these are the building blocks. And over time, most of the serious competitor will be able to access the similar structure.
Christian：41:45
I think the real mode here is actually the organization. They can turn this building block into a better product and continue improve it pass with anyone else. For example, like revealing staffing, our, you know, model in, you know, the company I like the most, I think 10 years ago, they're doing the same thing. 10 years later, they're doing the same thing still. But of course, new startup like us are still trying to copy that and to do the same thing, but at a, you know, faster speed, you know, cuz the reality is, you know, they're going into a very large enterprise. And I believe that's actually the something you couldn't, you know, you know, you couldn't solve this, you know, when you grow into certain level, it's very hard to keep the, you know, the growing or the, you know, the team management at a, you know, a same standard. So I think the real mode for any startup is actually the execution speed. So, you know, of course, compare to all the competitor or whether they're banned or fintech or other.
Christian：42:40
Sarah, I think we stay extremely close to our customer. I'm not sure, but I might be feel the founder who are in every group chat response to our customer every day, every second. As long as how you notice the message we gonna provide you, I think there's actually are meaningful. Cuz we often see a lot of complain or there are customer came to us say, hey, I really like your response on time. For example, we use someone else product when there's a bug or when there's a question, it took like a month for them to fix. But at infinite. For small and it usually fix, you know, in the real time. Of course, if it is a new feature they want, we usually deliver that in a week or two weeks.
Christian：43:17
You know, we receive a lot of the, you know, compliment that, oh, you guys are really fast. You know, we receive a lot of the, you know, compliment that, oh, you guys are really fast. So, yeah. Oh, I think, you know, just we can identify a problem quickly. And of course, we make decision and move fast. I think that's the always a mode for any startup to grow.
Christian：43:37
Of course, you know, in the second advantage, I think it's service. Actually, people are more talking about product. People are more talking about their, you know, strategy or their vision. But I think few of them actually, you know, talking about the service. But I, in fintech, especially in APAC, serve customer service.
Christian：43:54
Actually some of the most important thing like, you know, especially for to be the, you know, to just fine, they, they don't, you know, they don't choose to because you have a extra feature or your fee rate is a little bit, you know, cheaper than other. They take you because they trust you. And of course, that trust actually build because every time they needs response and you will be there usually trying to real solve the problem for them instead of, you know, trying to explain and trying to, you know, I, I think, you know, customer need a real response and they need someone to who can really solve their problem or for this problem could be very from different aspect, it's never the same.
Christian：44:29
But I think these are the core, you know, thing here is whether is myself or all the team work in our team, we actually do care and we want to, you know, solve all the problem as soon as possible.
Charlie：44:40
So yeah, sounds like a very visionary founder with very pin focus on execution. You're balancing product and service very well. But I understand as a founder, you have limitation any, especially you mentioned 2025 was a difficult year. What happened that year? Describe, you know, what difficulty you face and how did you navigate that?
Christian：45:03
Yeah, sure. As so many friend or audience might know before, 2,024 was definitely the hardest year in infinite history. Of course, we only have less than two years, but of course, probably the hardest year for my life. So we suffer a major security incident and, you know, last nearly 50 million US dollar above course, you know, we made three decision immediately. The first is, you know, use, there had to be attack, protect and withdraw had to continue. And of course, second, you know, we need to communicate directly rather than hiding behind, you know, the legal language or, you know, don't do anything at all. Insert is, you know, our responsibility to user could now depends on whether the stolen asset were recover as long as we have this capability. Yeah, so we actually commit to the full composition, of course, mainly by myself, no personally actually repay all the debt and of course put all the resource and credit credibility behind the commitment. Yeah, yeah, of course, that decision was financially painful, but morally straightforward. And I could, you know, I actually teach me a lot and I'm very grateful for this thing happen.
Christian：46:09
Yeah, so deeper lesson is that, you know, security is not a concept. Security is not a code audit or any feature is actually an operating system for the company, you know, whether it's your, you know, technical architecture, your access control, you know, separation of the duties, you know, know, the wallet words of vendor management of first the multi sign controlled and of course all the transaction monitoring and all the alert and also the instant response. So it's actually took a long time for us to rebuild those layer and, you know, add more stronger internal and also external controls, the audit and penetration testing. And of course, you know, trying to manage the funds sufficient and partner risk control in the product design level. Yeah, so I, yeah, I think during the lesson or during last year, yeah, I think it actually help us to rebuild the trust between us and our, you know, customers.
Christian：47:04
It actually came back gradually through the repeated behavior, you know, whether it's being, you know, staying available for the money transfer or money movement all the time or, you know, communication, speaking to customer directly. And of course, what very important is continuing to shipping the new product and of course, you know, delivery more progress, you know, you know, after the incident lesser, even though it's very tough year. Here, but luckily we survive it and, you know, became even stronger and more professional than usual.
Charlie：47:35
Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine cuz, you know, in the past few years, we, we sh, we see many incidents. And I think the flip side is definitely this is the process of trust building as a founder, as a product, as a brand, right? So, and you can build it by hiding it, right? You face it, you be super honest and you're, you should be super supportive of your team and your customer or to rebuild the product and keep executing cuz you don't wanna get hang out of the incident forever. You wanna keep moving, keep moving forward, executing. So looking ahead, and I think this is the amazing time of the year as we're, you know, finishing the summer, starting the fall and everyone's, you know, back focusing on the business on the market. What's your plan for the rest of the year and the next 12 months?
Christian：48:28
It took almost a year for us to deliver a mature product right now, both for business and consumer. I think the next 12 or 18 months for us is about moving from product proof to a actually skilled and trust financial platform.
Christian：48:43
The first priority, you know, is actually making Infini become a daily financial account for, you know, the, you know, cons, global consumer or business user. And the second is trying to, you know, improve and deep over, you know, features for the, you know, business operating side.
Christian：48:59
That will be, you know, that means more feat reels, more local account, stronger payment and payout coverage, better card capability, and of course, you know, better and more diversify strategy management and your product. And of course, all the workflow I just mention, whether they're on the team control side or you know, the expense management side. Yeah, but I think the goal is not simply to offer more product, is actually to make them work together as one. You unify account system.
Christian：49:29
And of course, the third part is probably AI agent, you know, on the consumer side, we gonna release soon, launch soon a agent that should help a user understand their personal finance, their cash flow, optimize their balance, and also, you know, take the routine actions. The business side, I think the agent or the ASFO should actually, you know, do all this work, of course, including all the, you know, transaction categorizing, you know, all the receipt or apar collect, you know, reconceal on their, you know, bookkeeping account first forecast cash or, you know, even help them execute the payment, you know, with a approval policy.
Christian：50:05
Yeah, so I think next 12 months gonna be super interesting and, you know, very fun process to watch. And definitely I think we'll grow to a, you know, much play as a, you know, larger stage.
Charlie：50:17
Sounds like a lot to build. And as a former investor, I'm curious about your fundraising plan over the next 12 months.
Christian：50:24
Yeah, we might start another round. Cuz I, I actually we didn't announce yet, but actually we did our, what is C run or Angel run last year. Yeah, but we never, you know, released news. So we probably gonna do that. I'm not sure, probably this month or next month on what we trying to really release our, you know, mobile app for the new product. And of course, we might trying to open another round since you already see, you know, apmf strongly sign and also we, you know, we already have our very sustainable and keep growing the revenue and also the user base. Yeah, yeah, that would be probably hope finish in this year.
Charlie：51:01
Awesome. Looking, really looking forward to seeing your growth, you know, another milestone of social rounds and also more, most importantly, the product, right? I think you're touching on a great point. Cuz I was, you know, to discussing on the another podcast to be released on Robin Hood, right? So everyone building consumer fintech product is washing re Rev, revolute and Robin Hood. They're, you know, as you said, they're launching new product features, but at the same time, they're making sure the products are coherent, they're working together instead of a separate frontlines. And as a early stage found, I think the right mindset will get you further in terms of building a more powerful product instead of just a product with a different features, a platform with different features.
Charlie：51:46
So, and I think this is definitely the right time to build, whether is because web to web 3 are merging together increasingly. And also AI is increasingly redefining how people are using financial products. So, and best of luck on your future growth and will definitely keep tabs open on, you know, how you're growing and maybe there are opportunity for future conversations. So yeah, and before we depart, any last word you wanna share to our audience? Any reflections wanna share or any things that you still wanna, you know, highlight?
Christian：52:22
Yeah, I, I actually, I don't have much to say at this moment, but, you know, I'm very grateful for this opportunity. And also I think I'm just, you know, exciting to share, you know, our product in hope. So this ones and definitely, you know, I will always be here to, you know, answer any question, whether it's, you know, related to our product or I also do a lot of advice for, you know, some the young founders. Of course, our client of first, we're trying to help them work together for their product growth. And especially if they're our client, I believe, you know, we can create this, you know, future together. Yeah, that would be much meaningful to me.
Charlie：52:57
Awesome. And also as a preview, I'm planning to host some offline events in both Singapore and Hong Kong over the next few months. And no, Christian is located in the APAC and there might be opportunities for you to meet our offline audiences and for our community networking events. So looking forward to seeing you in person and for you to meet our audiences around the world. Thank you so much for your time, Christian. Best of like on your growth and hope to see you again at some point.
Christian：53:29
Yeah. Thank you, Charlie. Appreciate. Yeah.
